Lagrange-Soderev

Here is how it translates: The owners have two months to

declare their claims to the legal representative. The

procedure is as follows: the owners form an association

and

to represent our interests by a lawyer. Categorically

refuse any amendment to our lease to reduce our rents.

Regroup per residence. Negotiate residence by residence.

Looking for a buyer is premature at this stage.

To that comment, I would add that for overseas-based

creditors, the time

limit is extended to 4 months instead of 2.

Source:

Leaseback-Issues&id=6391111">http://ezinearticles.com/?

French-Insolvency-Law---Leaseback-Issues&id=6391111cordiez41201.5202777778

Hi Sarah, Our accountant came back with these questions which we will forward to our contacts in France and see what they come back with:

1. Is there a body corporate that can contract on behalf of the complex? Or can be gathered collectively and get legal representation in this matter?

2. How is the asset being protected i.e. is maintenance ongoing; is this at risk? Should alternative property management companies be approached

3. If Soderev cannot fulfil their obligations re rental payments but are continuing with maintenance can owners rent out directly or through alternative property management company?

4. What is the exact legal position? i.e. do you have to agree to a reduction in rentals or can it be imposed on you? I would imagine now that they have broken the contract by not paying rent, that their rights under the contract are void

5. What is the position re selling the property? Is there any legal restriction? Of course the property may be considerably less attractive to a potential buyer if the complex management is affected.

6. What is French mortgage law like? i.e. can you forfeit property like US or still liable for debt like Ireland (you may have considerable equity in the property but if not this could be attractive option)

Regards

Colette

Hi we are new to the forum. We own a property in Le Roc Belle Face in Arcs 1600. I recieved a letter today from Soderev stating that Soderev has been placed under a safeguard procedure. It souds to me as if they are to continue trading with administrators overseeing things, although i am not sure. I have an interest only mrtgage with bnp paribas, but if i do not get lease payments the money will run out in about a year that i have in my french account. The development is only about 3 yrs old and we had an 11 year lease. I have contacted the bank today and forwarded the letter to them, and expressed my concerns that without any income eventually i will not have funds to pay my mortgage. I am waiting to see what they advise. I am going to seek legal advice to protect my property over here in case the worst happens and i have to walk away from my french property, that was meant to be my retirement pension!. Any advice would be helpfull, but my mortgage consultant is basically saying that after 6 months of non payment of mortgage they would place the property up for sale, and the sale normally takes a couple of years. Then they might come after you for the balance, but he feels this is unlikely. We have been paid the first 2 quarters lease payment, but have not had september payment. The document i recieved today says the lease payments will be on prorata temporis basis which i have no idea what that means. Any advice would be helpful, regards, Chris

Hi. Just reading forum posts. I own a leaseback in St Gervais known as Les Arolles which is operated by Soderev. I am keen to get in touch with other owners of this development. We will need to be a co-ordinated group to have any chance of standing up to th eReceiver. I note Justme is putting together a list of owners. How do I join that list?

Rob

Just send me a pm with your details

Kate

Info from the French group on http://www.legavox.fr/forum/immobilier/loyers-impayes-reside nce-tourisme-lagrange_39234_1.htm

One of the owners of a Soderev residence in Montignac has asked their agent who sold them their property what would happen to their commercial lease. They were informed that they would be proposed an "addendum" to the original lease.

Now I believe this might be an addendum with a rental yield reduction ....

Hi, only just seen this thread too... so many to read! I am a "classic" owner

at LFDS and one of about 15 owners who had a forum back all those years

ago when we were trying to get issues resolved. The forum is on the back

of my own website at www.alpsapartment.co.uk/forum - feel free to use it if

you wish, though I suspect there are already more people on here.

Someone asked the question of cleaning etc for classic owners. Yes, we are

totally on out own, and use a local couple who look after our apartment.

My worries are; A) maintenance of the site until this is all sorted... we have

bookings for the coming season which I am now concerned about. B) that

all the utilities (water/electric etc) are kept on... and the underfloor heating.

I don;t have the lease worry that you guys have - but am very much an

interested party.

Justme,

I am another of the unfortunates caught up in this Soderev horror show - we have a property in Peemor Pen also. I tried to PM you but apparently your inbox is full and you have exceeded your quota of messages. I wonder why!!

I agree that the only way forward in this mess is to group together.

Tom.

Hopefully there should be room in my pm box now

LES CHALETS de WENGEN.....Just got the same letter re Soderev last Friday. Have no idea how to proceed. Would love to get some help !

Paul

We've had the same letter.. Les Chalets Edelweiss , La Plagne 1800.

Looks like we'll have a double whammy, no rent plus we booked our

family ski holiday there in January, paying twice then

In the same boat too, with Le Clos Des Vignes in Bergerac. We have the letter translated and it indeed looks bad. What is the general consensus now?

Hi All
We are in the same boat as many others here, have a place in Peemor Pen. Just received the letter yesterday. Are there many Peemor owners on here ?

Hello

I'm a journalist for The Connexion, a paper for English-

speakers in France (or others interested in France). I'm

interested in writing about the problems in the November

issue, which we finish off tomorrow. If you want to

contact me about it I am on: 0033 (0)6 35 92 79 36 or

o.rowland@connexionfrance.com

Thank you

Oliver Rowland

www.connexionfrance.com

Sorry guys, no time to translate, but here a comment from the other forum: http://www.legavox.fr/forum/immobilier/loyers-impayes-reside nce-tourisme-lagrange_39234_2.htm
Domaine de Bourgeac.

Les propriétaires ont 2 mois pour déclarer leur créances au
mandataire judiciaire. La marche à suivre est la suivante: regrouper en
association les propriétaires et faire représenter nos intérêts par un
avocat. Refuser catégoriquement tout avenant à notre bail, visant à
réduire nos loyers. Se regrouper par résidence. Négocier résidence par
résidence. La recherche d'un repreneur est prématurée à ce stade.

Hi

We are owners in Les Bastides des Chaumettes - based in Ireland and would be very interested in joining together with other owners in the development to see what we can do.

Colette

Hi everyone, i had an interesting email from one of the owners connected to our development, Le Roc Belle Face. My main concern is that we become liable to repay the outstanding portion of the vat if all else fails and Soderev go into liquidation and no one else takes over the lease. I am told that there is a legal clause, that if 50% or more owners reject a decreased lease form Soderev, as long as 50% or more have rejected that the vat repayment cannot come into play. My own position is that i could survive on a lesser lease payment, but would not have funds to repay the vat. Any advice on this would be welcomed, regards, Chris. CJAce6141201.6883449074

Thanks to sandboh for posting that information from another site and thanks to Fabien for translating it. Do we know defintively that this is the legal position we are in? i.e. from the date of a renewed offer from Soderev (and presumably NOT from the date of safeguard) that we have this fixed time period (2 or 4 months depending on residency status) to respond and form an association for each development, assuming our response is negative??

This looks important and thus we all need to be aware of it if there is a fixed time limit open to us to respond and a formal mechanism we need to follow for negotiation with Soderev.

Fabien, are you able/willing to expand on this and let us know what form this 'association' of owners needs to take and what the negotiation with Soderev might entail? Any ideas on time and costs?? Does each development need its own association of owners? Would the precedents set by one associations fight with Soderev determine what happens when others try to negotiate with them?

The 4 months time-limit for filing insolvency claims

begins from the date the Order from the Court putting

Soderev into Safgeguard is published in a legal gazette.

The filing of claims (Declaration de Creance) therefore a

totally is separate issue from negotiations with Soderev

and/or its Trustee (the 'Administrateur Judiciaire').

Having recently acted for a group of Irish and British

leaseback owners that faced a similar situation with

another subsidiary of Lagrange, I can advise that no

formal 'association' of owners needs to be formed - as a

French solicitor, I often act on behalf of group of

owners that does not form a legal entity.

It is too early to anticipate what negotiations with

Soderev might entail. Presumably, a drastic lowering in

rents and increase in those charges which are for owners

to meet. Depending on what Lagrange will try to impose

upon owners, there may be separate groups in respect of

each development. Once cannot rule out a degree of

interaction between each group, especially where one

successful fight or negotiation creates a precedent.

Corresponding with a large group of individual owners

often proves problematic and therefore it would be a good

idea if owners were to appoint one of them as their

spokesperson for the purposes of rasing queries and

communicating instructions.

Hi, in the proof of debts do we need to mention all future

payments for the duration of the lease ? (9 years)

How do we calculate the raise of the rent overtime ?

Les Clos des Vignes Helpline

Can any owners looking for update please email closdesvigneshelpline@yahoo.co.uk with your contact details and apt/villa No

Thanks Lyn

I am aware of the emerging scenario with Lagrange. This

is similar with what happened with another of its

subsidiaries, Resitel, in March this year. At the time, I

was acting for a group of Irish and UK owners who were

facing the same threats from Lagrange/Resitel.

If an individual owner does not agree to the addendum,

his or her lease may well then be cancelled by Soderev's

Receiver. In fact, the Receiver has the power to cancel

all leases pursuant to French insolvency law.

The issue is that for the property as a whole to retain

its leaseback status, no less than 70% of all owners must

let their apartment be managed by one same leaseback

company. This means that if 31% or more owners decide not

to sign the amendment agreement or 'Avenant', the

Receiver cannot rescind each of these owners' leases,

unless of course Soderev wants to get rid of the site

altogether...

There is chance that the Receiver will be cancelling a

number of leases. Some leaseback owners will sign the

amendment document whilst others may in the end be able

to keep their existing lease agreement in force.

http://www.solicitor.fr French

lawyers

Hi,

Just registered as a result of the Soderev safeguard proceedings.

I own an apartment at L'Ecrins Des Sybelles in La Toussuire, and so does my brother. Apart from the 2 of us, I think there may only be 1 more UK owner there.

I would be happy to join any group action in response to the Soderev default on the lease contract.

Thanks,

Andy

Like a lot of other investors I am having trouble getting paid. As you know

Soderev is in the "Procedure de sauvegarde" I would like to here from other

investors at the Domaine de Bourgeac apartments that find themselves in the

same situation. with the view of sharing information and even combined

legal action. Possibly just to exchange thoughts.

Comme beaucoup d'autres investisseurs J'ai du mal à se faire payer. Comme

vous le savez est Soderev dans la "Sauvegarde de la procédure« Je tiens à

communiquer avec d'autres investisseurs dans les appartements du Domaine

de Bourgeac qui se trouvent dans la même situation. avec l'idée de partager

l'information et même combiner une action en justice. Peut-être juste pour

échanger des idées.

Please remember that creditors e.g. leaseback owners have

a set time to file a claim in respect of any unpaid rent

and charges that have accrued before 28 September 2012,

when the Court issued an Order putting the company under

Safeguard.

For overseas-based creditors, the time-limitation for

filing such a claim is 4 months from the date the Court

Order dated 28 September 2012 was published in a legal

gazette (23.10.2012) i.e. 22 February 2013. As from 22

March, any claim for unpaid rent, taxes and charges will

become time-barred.

Disclaimer. The information which the writer is

posting on this forum is for informational purposes only

and does not constitute legal advice, or create a lawyer-

client relationship. You should not act or fail to act

based on the information posted on this site without

first seeking appropriate, tailor-made, legal or other

professional advice about your specific facts and

circumstances.

Hi All,

I agree with Blotch - sharing progress and negotiations helps all.We are also at LFDS and have received an offer which has not been accepted.

Coming back a bit late to the forum (it has such a lot of

spam!!) but Blotch you asked for news of what had

happened to a development that was not offered an amended

lease.

Ours was not offered an amended lease. The rental

payment for Dec 12 was late, through some excuse about

not being able to configure their systems for VAT

changes. The rental payment for Mar 13 has not yet

arrived.

For owners who have not received an amended lease there

is a sense in which we cannot see matters ending well.

The recession continues to impact incomes and tourism in

general. It kind of feels as though this sauvegarde

process is extending the inevitable.

The properties are unsaleable (although 6 owners on our

residence are trying valiantly) so the long-term solution

for us would be running our own residence.

We should be using the sauvegarde process as a breathing

space to plan for alternatives but actually we are just

using the time to stick our heads under our collective

duvets.

I have have a leaseback in les Fermes de Samoens, keen to

contact other owners to co ordinate response to situation,

have read Fabien Cordiez post but would like understand

implications of the options he proposes.

We've received a letter today stating that they essentially have cash

flow problems and rents are late. They promise funds will be paid by

20th August! I won't hold my breath!Justme41102.8935185185

Yes, we've had an email from Soderev saying they've got problems with funds and they make some reference to trying to sort it all by 20th August. Like 'Justme' I'm not holding my breath. Looks like we're the latest in a long line of leaseback casualties.

Same here, got the letter from Soderev, like chelseablue, I

have a plece in Azay-le-Rideau.

Drama Mamas Lisa Poisso and Robindiablo 3 goldTorres are experienced gamers and real-life mamas -- anddiablo 3 gold kaufen just as we don't want our precious babies to be thed3 gold ones kicking and wailing on the floor of the checkout lane next to the candy,dD3 Gold - Normal - EU neither do we want you to become known as That Guy on your realm.

Hi, same problem for me with Soderev not paying rent anymore.

Next step, I guess they are going to try to negociate a new contract with at

least 50% less rent and all the service charges to pay, as their sister company

Resitel did (before going bust).

http://www.legavox.fr/forum/immobilier/loyers-impayes-reside nce-

tourisme-lagrange_37674_19.htm

You can leave your details here to regroup against Lagrange:

https://sites.google.com/site/gestionnairelagrange/home

looks like they have been loosing money for quite some time:

http://www.societe.com/bilan/soderev-tour/445103658201110311 .htm

it seems to regular practice with this type of "investment"

http://investirlocationmeublee.over-blog.com/article-un-exem ple-d-

investissement-lmnp-qui-tourne-mal-petite-xxxyse-chiffree-

79643007.html

Residence Les Chalets Edelweiss - La plagne - Soderev

Where did you hear this?

for chalet de wengen owners use this web site

http://www.mylocal-eyes.co.uk/cdw/

There is already a website setup for all residences:

https://sites.google.com/site/gestionnairelagrange/home/

Mine:

Soderev - Chalets Edelweiss - La Plagne

Lagrange / Soderev were put into Safeguard on 28

September. The Court's Order is yet to be published

however. You should shortly be receiving a letter from

the Receiver or the Creditors' Representative confirming

the same and inviting you to submit your claim.

There are 2 steps of action creditors should consider

taking, namely:

1. Filing a claim for unpaid rents with Soderev's

Creditors Representative. The process, which is called

'declaration de creance,' is is fairly formal;

2. As appropriate: Putting the Receiver on notice to

state whether he/she will cancel the lease. Unless the

Receiver says no to you/me, in writing, within one month,

then your lease gets automatically cancelled. Beware of

the fact that unless you enter into another leaseback

scheme/agreement within 12 months, part of the VAT rebate

you benefited from at the time of purchase will be due to

the French Treasury.

Many English-speaking leaseback owners are in the same

situation with regards to Soderev. It would be a good

idea if all joined forces and chose one of them to act as

a point of contact to coordinate legal representation.

Thanks to everyone for the invaluable information they have shared - it's generous of you all.

We have yet to receive our letter, but would be interested to hear from any owners at Les Bastides Des Chaumettes in Montauroux

Carl

Our apartment is also in Samoens ( we also have one in Peemor Pen)

we do currently have a Uk solicitor working for us due to other issues

with Lagrange but would be happy to join forces. We have not received

anything from Lagrange regarding the sauvegarde but will keep you

posted if we do

Kate

I have been researching this issue fairly intensively.

There is a "Lagrange victims" network. Most of the sites

are in French (will post links if required). The group

has certain subsidiaries - Resitel and Cerenissme are two

others as well as Soderev - in which the leaseback

arrangements are placed.

The Lagrange group has, so far as I can tell

systematically put these subsidiaries into liquidation

while the main group continues to be able to trade.

This is a huge issue. The leaseback arrangements were

mainly marketed to overseas owners. I will contact some

financial journalists to see if they are interested in

taking up the story.

Meanwhile, from an owners perspective, I am trying to

become a client of Fabian (who knows of what he speaks)

and trying to engage in a dialogue with Lagrange. A

group that does not respond to emails, letters or calls.

Carl (and others),

I too am a Fermes de Samoens owner. I agree with the idea of joining forces and maybe a collective pooling of knowledge and ideas for response. There was an owners forum set up specifically for FdS, but it hasn't seen action lately. Maybe we should try to get that reinvigorated if we want to discuss matters specific to our development. This may become relevant should there be a consensus amongst owners to 'self manage' our units there.

However we should not detach ourselves from the larger grouping of disgruntled Soderev/Lagrange owners as there remains strength in numbers. Maybe Fabian is the best man for us to use to keep us in that game. Anyone talked numbers to him yet? For a class action against Soderev, if we need to do such a thing, the individual costs may not be large....!

I am not sure unilateral attempts to converse with Soderev/Lagrange will get far. They have shown themselves to be typically unresponsive on other matters, so on this larger subject I think they will have a group policy of only issuing occasional mass formal edicts as and when the developing situation requires that they do.

It is also likely that the process of receivership will put a large number of their staff out of work, so unfortunately irritations such as emails from foreign owners will be the last thing on the minds of those that remain! We will eventually find who is the party with whom we have to conduct further business and we will likely then be told what the 'new deal' is. It is at that point that we need to be ready with a coordinated response.

Cheers

Adrian

I am available to assist leaseback owners

with the filing of claims, for unpaid rents, in

Soderev's Safeguard proceedings.

I can also suggest in due course a co-ordinated response

to the situation and advise on options and legal & tax

implications. This is professional advice and is

something I would carry out on an hourly rate basis, or

for a fixed fee if a list of questions can be issued.

Given the number of queries I receive, advising clients

individually would not be cost/time-effective. May I

suggest that leaseback owners wishing to seek advice form

a group and perhaps someone could act as a co-ordinator?

I received this from my accountant. It does almost sound worse for Soderev.

------------------------------------------------------------ ---

We have heard from other owners that they have financial difficulty and that

they went into liquidation.

Unfortunately they will not been able to pay you rents.

The final decision will be taken in November.

In this situation, you may have to contact the other owners and try to find a

new rental company.

Please note that the tax office may ask you to pay back the VAT on the

purchase price.

They are not aware of your situation but will be when they will receive the

2012 declaration in April 2013.

------------------------------------------------------------ --