Quietude URGENT

Well at least we owners seem like we will receive some rent at least for part of the Winter (i.e till November 30th). Does Mr. Chavaux know how much rent is due and to whom exactly it is owed or is there a requirement for us as owners to lodge our claims with Mr Chavaux?

Did Mr. Chavaux say also when the rental for the period from 28 July to 30 Nov would be paid?

Also, is it likley that an existing leaseback company would want to buy all of the residences in question or will Mr. Chavaux allow them to cherry pick which residences they want and liquidate the others (which seems to be what has happened with regard to Resid Hotel).

Has anyone received Q3 rents as Mr. Chavaux stated we would by the end of October when he met with the owners associations.

Also, has anyone heard if the receiver is in any discussions with other management companies with regard to the Quietude properties.

My concern is that the Quietude properties will end up being liquidated just like the former RH residences were last week.

If Quietude do indeed simply cancel the lease, I have a few questions:
1. Can they legally cancel the lease like this with no recourse, such as payments to us for breaking the lease?
2. Will they pay the rent owed us for the short time they owned the lease?
3. Apparently RH are still equally liable. Will they pay anything?

4. Apparently every management company permitted to operate under the leaseback scheme must have Indemnity Insurance which is supposed to cover the property investor, i.e. us. That suggests we should get something. Is there some action we need to take or will this all be taken care of as part of the liquidation of Quietude?
5. Can we insist on seeing financial records from both RH and Quietude? I'd like to show potential management companies how profitable the property was.
6. Will Quietude transfer utilities into our name? I assume the property will no longer be maintained.
7. Without a management company taking over the lease, how do we get the keys?
8. Any advice on finding a new management company?
9. Is it even worth finding a new company? Are there any that are finanically stable? Should we view this as a blessing and find a non-leaseback management company?
ians40107.8812731481

Gabriel, I believe you own a unit in Le Virginia Grasse. If so, then you need to contact the owns association at residencevirginia@gmail.com. There is a owner's general assembly on Nov 7th in Grasse at the Residence Virginia, where the owners are set to select from a groupe of management companies that have already approched us with offers. Other items will also be discussed like the choice of a new syndicat, actions are lawyer will take to go after all the parties that put us in this mess in the first place etc. It is important that you join the association, also you can go to the owners blog: http://residencevirginia.hautetfort.com/list/fichiers/liste- des-copros.html

Can anyone give me the name and address for the indivdual who i need to send the declaration de creance to .I own a Queitude property at Domaine de castella

many thanks

Does anyone know if we are actually going to get any rent at any stage and if so - when. I had thought that rent for when Quietude was in administration from July onwards would be paid in the middle of Oct?

Does anyone know if this is the case and if it will be paid is it done automatically or do we have to apply for it to the administrator and how is this done?

The lack of info is astounding. I would love to just find out something about rent coming in!!!

Sorry for the rant - cant understand how there isnt a process whereby the administrator has to inform us of proceedings or at least contact us in the first place!

H

what are the chances of getting new mgt company to take over these resorts (17 i believe which were with RH to begin with)

also, what yield can we now expect if we do attract a new mgt company

martin

Bertrand

re your post will the receiver be honouring the rent owed from when Quietude took over the leases until the date of liquidation of the ex RH resorts?

In regard to the RH properties. Could someone please clarify what is meant by liquidation? Are the RH leases simply being sold on yet again?

Will money from the sale go to the owners for unpaid rent?

Do we have any control over the selection of the next management company?

As an owner of an ex-RH property, can I expect any of these companies to pay anything any time soon?

I am one of those caught up in the RH/Quietude debacle. Some of the other owners at our apartment have been working very hard and secured a new management company but obviously at much reduced rates. My question is what if I don't want to join but go it alone? The property is into its 4th year.<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

Will I be liable to pay all the VAT back? Is there any chance of negotiating with the French over either the amount due given if I just walked away they would end up getting nothing as the bank stand 1st in any forced sale or, can you negotiate on the time period over which any refund is paid?

Wasn’t life much easier when you just got paid and everything ran smoothly!

Abrium

I have a property which was formally leased to RH and transferred to Quietude, do you know if our rents from the 28/7 - 30/11 will be paid?

Do you know when the receiver applied to have our leases liquidated as we have NEVER received anything on the transfer of our leases from RH to Quietude or that Quietude have gone into liquidation

The meeting took place on 12th afternoon, with representatives of 3 groups of residences (Quiétude Evasion historical residences, former Maisons de Biarritz residences and former Life Valley residences) and their common lawyer (Isabelle Chêne). What we learned on that day :

Rents will be paid at least for the periode from July 28th to November 30th. No guarantee afterwards.

A tender will be launched in the coming days to sell operations of all the residences, except Resid Hotel residences, which, I understand, will be liquidated. Data room will be available on a dedicated Internet site. Offers expected from candidates by Nov 30. Court judgement expected before Dec 15. At the time, the new acquirer would have to pay the rents.

All residence charges will not necessarily be paid in the interim period. I understand Chavaux will pay only fluids (electricity, gas, water, telephone) and other items mandatory to keep residences open and meeting safety standards.

Does anybody know whether this meeting happened on 12th or was it postponed again?

I think a swift resolution to this situation, whatever it may be, will benefit all of us owners.

This meeting was postponed last week by Me Chavaux to this morning, October 12th. People expected to attend are two representatives from each association (ADPRQ, ADI-Biarritz, ADI-LMP), plus their common lawyer (Isabelle Chêne). I beleive RésidHotel owners are not represented, as Me Chavaux recently asked the court to liquidate their residences.

We should therefore know much more later today

Did anyone attend the meeting held by the administrator on Oct 8 with regard to outstanding rents? I wasn't told about this meeting (other than seeing it discussed on this forum), does anyone know who the administrator invited?

Was any indication given in the meeting whether Q3 rents would be paid and what the situation was likely to be for Q4 rents?

Also, does anyone know if the administrator said anything about the likley future outcome of Quietude?

The administrator pays if he has enough money. Right now, in principle, he has to pay Q3 rents (actually from July 28 to Sep 30) for most of us prior to Oct 31 according to our lease agreements. He has a meeting with representatives of owner associations on Oct 8, and I believe he will confirm that.

Please note hat you are entitled to ask him in writing whether he intends to keep your lease alive and hence pay your rent. This procedure is called "demande d'opter". He can postpone by law his answer up to 3 months ahead, but, at the time, either he says yes and he is committed to pay until the end of his mandate, even from his own money, or he says no and then he terminates immediately your lease agreement. This is a safe procedure to avoid being stuck endlessly with an administrator who has no money to pay your rent, and I believe your lawyer has advised you to do so.

My view of Quiétude's cash position is that he has the money to pay everybody for Q3, but probably not for the entire Q4. Therefore, we must hope for a quick process from his side. In which residence are you an investor ?

copro-leon

If Quietude are in 'safeguard procedures' why is the reciever not paying the rents due whilst in these measures. I thought one of the safeguards was that all outstanding debts prior to the date of liquidation were put on hold but by law all debts arising must by law be paid when due.

I am well aware of Quiétude's situation as I follow it thoroughly since last may, being an important owner in of their residences. I may be able to answer some questions from non-french speaking owners lacking information

Bertrand

Has there been a receiver appointed? Are they in 'safeguard procedures' with the view that there will be a business to salvage or are they just the fence for Residhotel to offload the 15 residences the allegedly sold the leases to earlier in the year?

Here is an article on latest legislative developements:

French leasebacks in trouble: What's changing in 2010. http://www.solicitor.fr/French_leasebacks_in_trouble.pdf.

Regards,

Fabien Cordiez

Avocat à la Cour, Solicitor

Hi all

I own a property in Domaine de Castella which was taken over by Goeila. My rent has decreased by approx 20% but it was already quite low as i has opted for 6 weeks use. The other owners who had opted for 0ne or no weeks were cut by approx 50% .

On the plus side i have found the new company to be very efficient when making bookings etc , i am also able to exchange 2 weeks off peak for their other residences .

i spent a week there at Easter and fortunetly the French head of our residents association was also there . He was very happy with the new company and felt that they were very honest and committed to improving the standard of the residence . These views where echoed by the staff who were a lot more helpful than in previous years

Hi - just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to post comments. I am still deciding what to do but appreciate your thoughts and helps.

Regards - Dundee

HI Dundee, as previously said, it is a matter of choice depending on your circumstances. There are those owners who cannot take on board the stress involved in running a place themselves. They pay and this is how leaseback works. Try and find out more about Goelia if it helps you and speak to the other owners. However, you will probably find them resigned to the idea. If the Domaine des Oyats has previously been doing well then they may make a good job of it. If you do sign with them then good luck.

Tri

Hi, Mutley will fill you in on this. In my experience, breakfast does not have to be offered as the idea behind apartments is that they allow the occupant to opt for self catering. People here who have done what you are hoping to do, i.e. rent out yourself will give u a clearer picture. I wouldn't worry about the 70% as in this type of case most people allow themselves to be bullied by these French crooks (I can understand why, i.e. they have financial pressures, family pressures etc). Remember if you accept this new lease you are voluntarily reducing the value of your own property. This has not happened to me (yet) but if it does I will fight it to the bitter end, I have always had an aversion to bullies and crooks and even more so when they try to destroy my life savings. In the UK you now have upcoming elections, now is the time to lean on your aspiring ministers to do something about this. I have one simple request of the French government. If my management company won't pay my rent or start looking to break the lease (e.g. by looking to reduce the rent), just let me rent my property myself to holiday makers. I should have this choice... after all it is supposed to be FREEHOLD PROPERTY NOT A TIMESHARE

Hi - thanks for comments. I have just had an email explaining what has happened and saying that all owners have accepted the lease and that I am the only one not to have done so. If this is the case or if more than 70% have signed this, I don't think it is feasible for me to do this on my own plus I would have thought there are issues of getting use of all the facilities eg. dining area (as I think breakfast has to be offered), pool etc. ADPRQ apparently have negotiated all this so far.

Would you agree???

Mr Dundee.... JuanAzur is entirely correct. Whoever Goelia is only wants to make money from your apartment, these managment company's are taking advantage of us and french people also. However, based on what I have read on these forums the best course of action is to stop paying your french mortgage and let the banks sort it out. If however you have invested british money and feel emotionally attached to your investment then try and set up your own management company with the other owners. The 'french' owners if there are some, will be useful and you will need a lawyer to set it up. The law has changed in favor of this happening this year. In the meantime rent it out yourselves..the season is about to start. Don't give money to crooks.

Tri

Dundee

Here are my thoughts.... If this can happen, a lease in French law is meaningless. Well it means that you have to keep up your end of the bargain, but the French don't. If I was you I would not accept this and do what others have done here and rent it out yourself and get a local company to provide basic services like linen, towels and cleaning. Don't let these crooks win!

Hi - I have just received a letter from Goelia re. taking over the Quietude lease in Domaine des Oyats. I have been told the general terms are:

We all get the use of the property two weeks a year, whether we want it
or not, but not in high season.

The rent we will receive will be 59% of that we got with Quiétude.
The
rent will be paid in advance, not in arrears.

Has anyone else got this and what are your thoughts?

I am an owner of an ex Quietude leaseback property. I have been trying unsuccessfully for the last month or so to contact the receiver to see if my lease with Quietude has been cancelled.

I cannot rent my property out privately until the lease is cancelled. At the moment this is very frustrating.

I do not know why there is a delay in the cancellation of the lease - I am not sure if the receiver is talking to other propspective management comapnies or if they are just being slow!

Has anyone lese had any communiction from the revceiver about the situation with their Quietude leases? January is upon us now, a time when people start booking their holidays, I think that a resoltion 1 way or another from the receiver is needed very soon.

Birdonthewire88

My advise is to forget about your 380E you've no chance of getting it back, don't waste any time or money trying to persue it as it will only cause you grief and frustration.

I personnally am owed a far greater amount and as yet Maitre Levy (Saint Dennis) the receiver for Quietude has not had the courtesy to send me a letter informing me offically Quietude have gone into receivership or acknowledged my declaration of Creance sent to him over a month ago. Personnally this whole sorry afair between RH and Quietude stinks and was obviously trumpped up between the two companies and interested parties to get rid of some of RH's liabilities.

Put the whole sorry affair down to experience. Sorry to put it so bluntly but you soon learn that you can only bang your head against a brick wall for so long before it hurts.

Bonjour a tous,

My situation is slightly different from those that have been decribed here but after many searches on the internet regarding the situation with 'Quietude evasion' yielding very little I wondered if anyone here may be able to help.

Basically, I am an English student who was a tenant in a flat in Avignon managed by Quietude from August 2008 to May 2009 during an Erasmus year in France.

After many attempts at contacting both the solicitor dealing with the case and Quietitude themselves by e-mail, recorded letters, and phone calls, my deposit (380E) has still not been refunded and furthermore, there is very little indication that it will be since I have not yet received any form of reply.

I know the sum is comparatively small in relation to your lease concerns but it is however, a lot of money for a student to lose!

I'd be very grateful if anyone could give me any advice on the matter and how I should proceed.

Many thanks.

Has anyone else received a letter from Assoc de Defense des prop. des residences Quietude? I got one a couple of weeks ago and wondered if there was merit in replying to it. I have also got a letter from Cabinet Babin Immobilier about a generale meeting to do with nominating a presidentand buying lots 69-76. Does anyone know what is going on with this and has anyone else got this? The meeting is on 4 Dec 2009

For info, I did receive the paltry sum of 737 euros rent last week but do not expect to get much more, especially as we are in the winter months.

A few golden rules for you to follow to help you on your way:

1. Write to the French Authorities and ask them for copies of the guarentees that were applicable to the advertising by the sales agents for your property (send them a copy of the advert used by your agent too). Remember "French government backed scheme" and "guarenteed rentals"??

2. Do not call your management company. Fax them and send them letters signed for and staple the receipts to the letters. Do not be concerned if you do not get a reply. Write or fax at least once a week.

3. Write to your banks and tell them the management company is no longer paying you rents and ask for advice. You will get none.

4. Write to the Notaire and tell them the management company is no longer paying rents and ask for advice. You will get none.

5. Write to the sales agent and tell them the management comapny is no longer paying rents and ask for advice. You will get none.

6. Do not renegotiate the terms of your mortgage.

7. Do not accept a lessor payment or terms for the property you bought even if with a new management company.

8. If your management company is paying rents in line with the agreement you bought, do not default on your mortgage.

9. Write to your sales agents and developer asking for copies of their indemnities as you do not consider that the property sold to you ever existed in the first place. You will get no reply.

What you need to start to prove is quite simply that "this product did not exist" therefore you was sold and leant money on something that did not exist. IF you accept a mortgage review or lessor terms you are admitting that the product did not exist but you are prepared to settle for lessor terms and accept this fact.

The French government and the banks would be off of their heads to try and come and get you in the UK if you have managed your affairs correctly. Chances are the case would not get past a French court let alone UK.

Do not be frightened by the TVA. If the French government were to try and recall TVA on a failed leaseback where the owner is making every effort to try and abide by the rules of leaseback outside of the scheme there would be no more leaseback full stop. You need to give the French Authorities more credit. The TVA is a threatening and scaring tool used by the sales agents, management companies and banks. The problem does exist but not to the levels they have you believe. French TVA is reviewed on a case by case basis and as long as you are making every effort to rent within market rates and not using it as a holiday home you may be given a fair hearing.

Stop acting like you are the guilty ones!

Mutley

I was under the assumption that the VAT due would be as Cath states with the pro rata applied - example (15/19ths) + interest.

Technically speaking the French Government and the bank can register any deby due in France with the UK authorities in order to get any unpaid tax/debts back.

My understanding is that there is a 5 year period so that you pay all of the VAT back in the first 5 years and then pro-rata after that. I have no idea what is happening with Quietude (I have not had confirmation they are in receivership)but I have not paid my mortgage for a no. of months and simply do not have the money to pay the VAT back. I am not sure how the French Government intend chasing it but I am certainly not going to volunteer it. It is also my intention to give the banks the keys back once they start pushing. The French Gov do have to take some blame - there are a multitude of leasebacks that are in trouble and the Gov were happy for these to be promoted without any regulation. Now they have been silent in trying to give any assistance. All these houses were bought in good faith but there have been some various practices going on eg. Quietude buying RH when neither of them were in good shape. Had this happened in the UK you do feel there would be some protection...

Thanks Cath, I was not sure if there was say a 5 year period and then you start to reduce. So for example the 1st 5 years you would pay 20/20th's and then year 6 it 14/20th's?

As anyone actually argued/negotiated with the French Government to reduce the amount or extend the time over which you pay it back? If I just gave the keys back and walked away then the bank would get all the money on what would be a fire sale leaving nothing for the taxman! Would it not be in his benefit to do a deal.

If I have 12 months to find another management company do I then have to pay the by the end of the following year so could actually postpone the payment for 24 months?

As far as I know there is a liability to repay the VAT that lasts for 19 years but you pay a diminishing amount for each year that you remain with a leaseback scheme.

So in your case you would pay back 15/19 of the VAT. As for negotiating I don't think that they know the meaning of the word but although I have had no dealings with Cest la Vie they sound like the type of company that might be able to assist in a case like this.

Cath

Hi - I have just come across this forum and am lost as how to proceed. I bought a house in Domaine des Oyats and on reading all the posts, just want to try to understand what will happen now. Am I correct in saying that we have no chance of getting any rent for the forseeable future (the last rent I got was Q4 2008) and now Quietude are receivership, may not ever get money from them or whoever takes them over (I feel it is unlikely that anyone would want to buy them in the current climate). If I try to get the house rented on my own, I assume I have to pay the VAT back, even though this is completely out of my control. Also, does this constitute the lease being broken, even though there is technically no company in place - the post above from Mutley talks about a copy of the broken lease however I have have no notification about anything from Quietude for the last few months. Further, I would think that the houses in Domaine are being let at the minute - who is this money going to?

I would also like to go on to the blog mentioned in earlier posts but it is in French - do you know if there is an English version or a good translation service?

The options seem to be:

- wait to see if any rent is forthcoming

- try to get it let myself

- appoint a solicitor

- try to sell the house

I would welcome your thoughts on what to do next.

Sorry
That last post by me was as a response to waynes response to me and not to other posts - I was slow in responding!

H

Gosh
Thanks for your advice - positive and all as it is.
I personally prefer to take the advice of solicitors who deal with this every day. My solicitor has been dealing with the clients from these situations who are receiving rent. I also know someone who personally has received rent also.
Thankfully we all have the choice in what we do. For me - thats getting professional advice, from several different sources and making decisions based on that advice - if you call that head in the sand then we come from different opinions of sand. I wish you the best with your leaseback.

H

To Dundee,

Some owners in our leaseback have chosen this route at the beginning of our legal procedure. i.e dropping out and as far as I understand it, the process is the same as here. The banks will eventually repossess and it will go to auction. It may seem like the best option as opposed to the uncertainty of years of litigation but I think you will be declared bankrupt in France ( who cares! )It depends on whether you are happy to cut your losses on the deposit if it was raised in Britain/Ireland. It's one of those decisions that one has to make according to the future options so get advice. This is a fierce learning curve.

My place has not been let for 5 years and the VAT branch of government has not yet come knocking. I have yet to hear of anyone else who has been asked for it.

I think there are many in your position who have left the keys with the banks and said sort it out yourself.

You then need to go down the miss sale route.

I doubt you will have to repay the TVA being the proerty will have to be sold as leaseback again.

All I can say is theo whole legal system in France is a mess and commercial leases are a nightmare

If I had known what I know now and hadnt had such substantial equity I would have walked away a long time ago.

At least if you change your locks you can use or rent it yourself as much as you like.

Its a drastic course of action but one I would take myself if back in that position

I now rent on short term let basis and satisfy the TVA posuition so I have no intention of repaying any TVA.

Get a strong group and be very brutal

Do not believe anything and challenge everything

Does this mean Q1 and Q2 wil not be paid and when would we expect to get Q3 and Q4?

Just as an aside, what would happen if you cut your losses ie. closed French bank account and notified your mortgage lender that you couldn't pay the mortgage. I am still in the 5 year period so in theory would have to pay full VAT back, but what are the consequences of just letting the mortgage co. take repossession of the house, which is highly likely to be worth less than paid for initally and let the French Government whistle for their VAt as they were happy to promote the leaseback scheme but will not help now there are problems?

I think changing the locks may give some satisfaction but will mean the house will definitely not be let.

I sorry but you are wrong and living in some form of dreamworld

Fact the adminsitrator paid nothing to our group and all he did was pay the French and ignored investors,believe me if theres no money you wont get paid

You will not be getting your rent so you need to wake up,the administrator can only pay what he has and you are last in line to get paid.

Im speaking from factual experience and I think you need prepare for 12 months with no rent

Have a look deeper into posts on this site and you will see what i mean

As for the French then theres nothing legal about the way you are being treated so make up your own mind.

Simply saying ''I dont care'' if Im getting paid,this is nothing more than burying your head in the sand

Yours

Been there,seen it and done it!!!

Hello
I have managed to get lots of information in the last few days. I would be wary of some of these websites - while I think its important that we all share info - sometimes i think people make very strong suggestions and they are completely illegal. Thankfully I did seek legal advice and I am now much more aware of the options. It seems that receivership is not bust in France but a status designed to protect the company while they try and survive while in trouble. While in receivership they must pay CURRENT rent - so 3rd and 4th quarter 2009 rents will be paid - see Residhotel posts to see the same happened there and they are receiveing rents. Basically the company is now monitored by the receiver - they must survive on money in bills out scenario for the next 6 month otherwise will be declared bankrupt at end. Debts are frozen for the moment although the receiver apparently can pay out some of this money if there is a profit to try and clear the debts. At the end of the 6 months they can continue in receivership for another 6 months, go into bankruptsy or go back into normal trading and negotiate payment of their debts with their creditors.

So - positive news is that we are out of limbo for at least 6 months and will be receiving rent. After that its a wait and see situation. I am all for them sorting themselves out and while I agree that they should have managed themselves better - I do think there comes a point and time where we all have to get on with it - ( I speak for myself here). I would prefer them to be ok as I dont want to have to deal with this property myself and I was happy with things before the problems.

It may take them a year or two to sort themselves out. As long as I am receiving rent I dont care.
Hope this is a help to some.

The given advice is a good summary to anyone newly finding themselves in the same situation. We got hold of the names of the other owners through the local tax office and have claims in the civil and criminal courts. Could be years.....

I do know a group of French people who have been caught out by their own corrupt system. However it is high time that the french laws presented a cleaner face to foreign investment.

Has anyone actually been landed with their VAT bill...?

Your first move should be form a group of investors and appoint a lawyer to act on your behalf.

Be swift and brutal in your actions being the French legal system or anyone else couldnt give a toss about you

First and foremost you have not broken the lease it is they who have broken it but you need legal papers to prove it.

I can assure you the money is being trousered by the numerous crooks involved,sad as it is they are renting and benefiting from an asset you own until you put a stop to it

This will eat you up as time goes by so maybe you need to take decisive actions and get your locks changed when no one is around,it will take years for them to get you to court but in the meantime they will be bankrupt

Trust me the French are nothing short of sh*te in Leaesback,I hope the brits can ruin this business for them and maybe they may clean up their act

Wayne