Lagrange / Soderev

I have a property in Le Clos des Vignes as well. That makes about five

of us on the forum. A small number out of a possible 80!

I should like to invite any interested owners to a
conference call to be held on 28 October to share
information and discuss options.

The conference call is to be held on Sunday 28 October at
08:30 UK time. I expect the call to last at least one
hour, and the objectives are to share information and
also to discuss potential outcomes.

All owners are welcome but particularly I should like to
invite owners at Les Bastides des Chaumettes.

The dial in details are as follows.

International access number: +44 207 154 0601
The participant PIN (follow the prompts) is 7973353#

I look forward to talking to my fellow owners Sarah41193.5977662037

I am an owner at LFDS and received the bad news via my accountant. My

instinct is to pay the vat and get out ASAP. I think it unlikely that I will

choose to accept a new lease as the terms offered historically are very poor

indeed in these circumstances. My understanding on purchasing the

property was that if I sold prior the the end of the lease I would be liable to

repay only a portion of the TVA on a pro rata basis. It would be my hope

that a similar situation may arise here, however I have long since given up

positive thinking where French Leaseback is concerned.

I will be there 12/19th January and then again 16/23rd March, be great to

meet for a drink if anyone else is there at the same time.

I purchased a leaseback flat at Les Patois Eugenie in Biarritz from LaGrange with a lease to Soderev. Sale is due to close at the end of 2012.my accountants have informed me of the Soderev issue.I would be happy to discuss the issues which will arise with any other purchaser of this units in this development. My phone number is 00353(0)879794046.
JR63. My email adress is johnrogerkenny@gmail.com

JR6341193.6762615741

Hi,

We are Classic owners of an Appartement in Les Fermes de Samoens and we

are following the two threads about Soderev with some concern. We will be

in LFDS at the end of October for a half term break, and will report back

what we find. We expect the site to be shut down as it is out of season.

I'm still trying to work out the company structure, our maintenance payments

(Appel de Fonds) are collected by Lagrange Syndic Immobilier. They send us

an itemised bill twice a year. We don't interact with Sodarev at all. Do

Sodarev collect the appartement hire fees and pass them on to Lagrange who

pay the (e.g. electricity) bills?

When our underfloor heating failed last year it was the Syndic who had the

authority to sort it out, which they did - eventually.

Regards

Dick n Chris

hi folks

just joined the site having got my letter re administration today!

I must say from reading your excellent posts so far leaseback is looking a

dead duck and the good years seem behind us. In terms of value of the

property long term getting into traditional owner renting would seem

desirable despite VAT issues if the longer term is the plan

If anyone is in a la grange leaseback in La Plagne or Les arcs would be

especially interested in getting in touch re future strategy - we are in plan

peisey. We have manly French owners so collective British action seems

remote - nonetheless the advice to refuse all offers of reduced deals that

affect property value have been fantastic at this stage

look forward to hearing from anyone with a similar mainly European

ownership of their leaseback set up as acting in small numbers on a

collective problem seems silly

steve

Hi I am an owner at les fermes st Gervais and would be keen to

connect to other owners

Had letter today confirming Soderev financial problems and

in administration. End of September rent not paid - seems

unlikely now. Our leaseback property is in Cancale. We'd be

prepared to join any group trying to find a resolution to

this. Like others, we are confused by related French law as

well as by the opaque relationship between Soderev and

LaGrange.

We are where we are. Some thoughts:

1. We haven't received any rent all year and there has

been no explanation of this or communication of

Lagrange's intentions. They have not responded to calls

and emails and letters, and I had to make myself

thoroughly objectionable before getting an admission that

they were in financial difficulties (something they

explicitly denied to me in July when I did my normal

trick of refusing to go away until I'd received some sort

of discussion of the issues). So I am very sceptical that

Lagrange "are very keen on working with you with

transparency and using a positive approach".

2. Our site is trading well. We go on the internet each

year to check prices and availability. This piece of

evidence is anecdotal but we made a silly mistake when it

came to booking our weeks, and it was a huge issue to

obtain use of our house because the site was completely

full. With Soderev though, we are bundled in with other

developments that are not trading so well.

3. The structure of the contracts is such that we have no

visibility of what Lagrange is paying to Soderev. That's

an intragroup transaction. The easy answer for Lagrange

in difficult times s to pay less money to Soderev. We

have no guarantees that even if we accept the forthcoming

(substantially worse) offer that it will be honoured by

the group.

4. It now becomes a commercial decision. We have to

weigh up the costs of the TVA and any rental income that

we would receive by letting the properties ourselves less

the maintenance costs. The alternative is whatever

Soderev offer, bearing in mind that in other

administrations the owners received very little or

nothing.

5. I am worried by the stories that those who have gone

before have relayed on trying to exit the lease that the

Lagrange group tried to pursue them for compensation for

not honouring the lease agreements. How that could even

be feasible in French law beggars belief, but still it

seems that is what Lagrange's lawyers have suggested. The

legal costs of trying to extricate ourselves from the

leases may be substantial (perhaps this is why the

compensation argument has been made?). So I am very

nervous about legal fees.

Hi

Got my letter today. Seemed inevitable that the maths would someday

break.

I am in Les Trois Glaciers, Montchavin. Happy to join up in action with other

owners.

Taking the apartment back seems like an interesting option, so would be

interested in experience of letting out direct in LTG. Not sure I have really

ever gauged how full it gets.

g

Like everyone else we go the letter yesterday morning - no surprise and have found the site very useful - thank you. Had problems getting registered yesterday.

We are in Les Fermes de Samoens. 7 years in December.

We would like to come out of the lease scheme even if we have to pay the 13/20ths of the VAT over 3 years - concerned about them being able to charge us a commercial compensation for us not agreeing to a reduced offer of rent and increased charges which no doubt will be winging its way to us.

From what I read we need to act together with all the owners at LFDS as a collective using one advocat.

Will private message Justme for inclusion in the data base

A lady called Nathalie Grosclaude posted this elsewhere, but it is very important news and worth reposting here.

Nathalie has done a marvellous job in two days.

She has obtained a full list of owners on all the sites. If you message her with your email address, she will provide this list to you.

She is making an association to bloc the group and she has found a lawyer who specialises in this.

She will let you know more if you are interested.

Sarah,

Is there a link or have I missed something ref Nathalie Grosclaude?

Looks to me like the most important thing we can all do now is keep communicating with each other and then collectively review and most likely reject any new offer from Soderev that will certainly be lower/worse than that we are currently signed up to. All very simple.

The next but bigger hurdle is that of extraction from the existing lease arrangements and forming some sort of new association for each development or soucing a better deal from another party (which is probably unlikely). At that point joint legal resources will be paramount, both to share costs and to ensure unanimity of response.

Sarah, you seem to have some good links. 'Justme' has a database forming for owners of a couple of developments. Looks like others are doing likewise for other developments.

So, all in all, I think there is a good collective set of actions going already, and we haven't even had a formal new 'offer' from Soderev, just the letter informing of their predicament. Next call is theirs to make.

Stay calm and carry on, seems to be the best advice and plan for now. Just sorry for those who may already be under water financially because of this situation.

Hi All

I thought I would let you have an update on our experience with La Grange so far. Our residence is run by Resitel which is one of 3 management companies used by La Grange ( Soderev is another).

Resitel appear to have cancelled a number of leases and returned keys where they wanted to cancel the contracts as soon as possible in their least profitable residences - these were mainly in the Pyrenees. Where the contract is terminated by the management company then compensation should not be due ( according to the solicitor we consulted). So for some Soderev residences the leases could be cancelled fairly quickly.
Resitel had just two properties in the Alps and addendums to the lease were sent to owners of Cybele in Brides les Bains and Le Hameau in Vailloire in April ( the addendums were different for each residence). All owners were told that if they did not sign the addendum their leases would be cancelled. Both sets of owners met with La Grange in Paris on separate occassions to try and find some middle ground ( negotiate a fairer addendum) to no avail.
With Cybele it was clear from the limited account information we could extract from La Grange that Resitel were asking owners to take a much bigger reduction in net income than was needed to keep the residence profitable.
In September Resitel presented their recovery plan to the court and there were 3 residences where most owners had refused to sign the addendum which included Valloire and Brides. The Valloire owners have now been told that their leases will be cancelled and as far as I know there is no compensation to pay. They are now free to find another management company or self rent.
For Cybele the situation has become more complex as Resitel / La Grange appear keen to keep the residence if possible so our leases have not been cancelled as threatened / promised. ( if the residence was really as unprofitable as they tried to make out our leases would have been terminated by now). They did however offer to terminate the leases for those that wanted to but compensation would be payable!
As we won't sign the addendum and they haven't cancelled the leases we are at a stalemate. Resitel never answer any emails or phone calls and despite many requests the exact relationship between Resitel, La Grange and the La Grange Syndic ( LSI) remains unclear. LSI don't answer our emails either. However, it appears to be La Grange in Paris that makes the decisions.
Owners that had weeks booked in the summer months were able to use their appartments and the residence has continued to be busy - they are taking bookings for the 2012/13 ski season !
We have not been sent the calender for occupation for next year so owners have been unable to book up the weeks they want to use their apartment.
In summary, we are still playing a waiting game and it feels like Resitel are doing their best to wear us down in the hope more owners will eventually sign. Thankfully as a group we are standing up to what can only be described as 'bully boy' tatics. Resitel do not have to present their recovery plan to the court again until March 2013 so we could be in for another 6 months of uncertainty.
Hope your residences work out. If Soderev do go into a sauvegarde regime and your leases are not cancelled then under French law they have to pay your future rent on time or face liqudation. Our Q3 rent was paid - although it was a week late.

thanks for the post sparklygirl and hopefully your next date in court goes well.

What would be interesting is to get your views of how your legal team /advisers have acted so far?..... are you happy with them and would you be prepared to share their contact details with owners from other residences. would you recommend them as they seem to have done alot of the legwork so far.

How then have you managed to pay for this advice? did you set up a group account, get everyone to pay an amount in and go from there? has it been expensive?

From what you say, it appears that each property is being dealt with by lagrange on its own merits ie if they want to still manage it or not. If they dont, then they are happy to disgard it but if they found it profitable then they try and break your resolve down and hope you sign.

So on the basis of your information, it probaably makes more sense for each set of residents to form their own group as opposed to one large group covering multiple properties.

thanks

Hi,

I have found this interesting article on what 'Safeguard'

entails under French insolvency law:

French Insolvency law:

What does Sauvegarde mean?

The date of the safeguard is 28 th September our rents are due 30 th

September according to the lease. Is the debt therefore deemed to be

before or after the safeguard ?

I believe LFDS will be one they want to keep as it rents well in winter

and summer. We will be in the same place as the owners in La Plagne

in for a long battle

Lynne

And where the residences are self-managed, who looks after things like lifts/common areas? Did you appoint a new management company?

An Irish commentator has expressed some scepticism as to

whether or not the financial difficulties allegedly being

encountered by the Lagrange group (and others) is

genuine.

So purely as a matter of academic interest, I tried to

find out. It irritated me slightly that I didn't know

whether the group was struggling or using these processes

as a cynical ploy to get owners to bear the cost of

improving or maintaining earnings. What I established is

that the corporate financial information is shrouded in

secrecy.

Unfortunately I couldn't establish who ultimately owns

the group, beyond finding one reference to it being

privately owned by a family. That source of information

is unreliable (WIKI) and unattributed so it may not be

true now, even if it was once.

I started by pulling the accounts of the French

companies. There are a number of these, the majority of

which do not have a requirement to file accounts. The

ones that do, have a Dutch parent company. Working back

up through the ownership trail, we end up with a Swiss

company, which is the ultimate parent. The trail goes

completely cold there. In Switzerland, with the

exception of banks, insurance companies and companies

traded on the stock exchange, there is no obligation to

file any information at all.

Working back up through the UK ownership chain (there is

a small outfit in the UK which basically consists of

holiday reps) you go via Luxemburg and end up in

Switzerland, where the trail goes cold again.

So what I can tell you is that it is a Swiss group based

in Geneva. I can tell you who the CEO is and where its

registered office is. But I cannot tell you its revenue,

its profits, its overall level of indebtedness or who

owns it.

Who knows who we are dealing with ultimately? I suppose

it might be a Swiss family with a mania for privacy. But

then again, it might not ...

This doesn't of course have any bearing on our position

as owners, but I thought it worth sharing.

Hello . Found the forum today. Own residence on St Gervais

Les Fermes. Have been susp something wrong since last rent

late. No rent this last quarter!. I do think we should all

have some idea of a group decision and keen to keep in

contact with other owners within the residence.Will sit

tight for now .

I purchased a small cottage on a development called 'Les Hautes de la Houle 'in Cancale near St Malo in 2008

It has been completely trouble free and the first I heard of this was when I simultneously noted that the payment for the 3rd quarter had not been paid in and received the letter from Soderev.

As far as I am aware the development is part privately owned and managed by la grange but I am unsure.
I opted for the full return in preference to usage and other than the initial viewing have not been there.

I am of the opinion that the development I am involved in is almost exclusively French owned so it would be interesting to know what the French owners are doing about this and I am sure there are other such forums and upset going on in France. Does anyone have info on this as my French is appalling.

MEP involvement seems a sensible route as I feel given the complexity of French Law and beaurocracy we will be lost and a co-ordinated union of owners rather than individual developments would carry more weight, be cheaper and distribute the relevant information accordingly. It seems there are some knowledgeable people on the forum and I am very gratful to whoever set this up.
ultimately though individual developments will almost certainly have to form thier own management companies and coordinated information sharing will be key

.

To simonflynn

Good to hear from you,

I am a french national and I live in Ireland. I also

purchased in 'Les Hauts de la Houle' in Cancale in 2008

and I received the letter on friday.

I think we need to join forces to fight this and the

first step is to try to get in touch with all other

owners in 'Les Hauts de la Houle'.

From what happened with RESITEL, (I posted a message in

LEGAVOX.FR so you can have a look - my username is the

same), SODEREV are going to send us a new contract with

new terms that are very unfavorable i.e. a drop in rent

plus we will have to pay all the charges. So all taken

into account it's going to be a 50% drop in rent. We

should not accept this new contract pushed upon us as by

doing so we will automatically break the existing

contract which stands for 9 years. Cancale is doing quite

well so we need to fight to get a better deal. Note that

I actually have a sister using my cottage for the next 2

weeks and she is telling me the place is quite busy. I am

going over there myself on thursday and will try to get

the addresses from other owners.

You can contact me directly by e-mail @

jcalinquant@hotmail.com

Best Regards,Scubadog41196.5558564815

Received Soderev Safeguard letter on 11th October. We have a property in Les Gets (Les Fermes Emiguy). Anyone else??

We have been 3 times this year and always busy. During winter it was packed out!!

Can you let me know how to join up the group mentioned in previous posts with other impacted (Soderev) owners.

I have asked the very helpful agent we used to purchase this property 2-3 years ago if he can shed anymore light?

To Finlay:

The french are on the LEGAVOX.FR forum (in french). See

http://www.legavox.fr/forum/immobilier/loyers-impayes-

residence-tourisme_37674_1.htm

Jean-Charles

owner in "Les hauts de la houle" - Cancale

You can look up accounts that have to be published here -

http://www.infogreffe.fr/infogreffe/index.do

I can't see that you would be able to locate the

financial information publicly though. The accounts for

the individual residences don't seem to be published

(unless I am missing something).

What you could do though, is get the accounts from the

Syndic - they send you those every year I think. This

shows all the expenses. Then you'd have to try to work

out what the rental income would be. That's a product of

the rent multiplied by the occupancy rates. That seems

to me to be very variable.

If there is an easier way of doing it, I would be very

grateful if someone would enlighten me.

http://lagrangelatoussuire.forumactif.org/

another French active forum

I will try and answer a few of the questions based on my experience with the Resitel sauvegarde.
1. You should receive the rent from the date of the sauvegarde onwards - so if the sauvegarde was 28 Sept and your rent is due on 30 Sept you will only receive rent for 2/3 days.

2. The rent owed to you for the rest of the quarter will need to be claimed via a declaration de creance and you should receive a seperate letter telling you where this claim should be sent to. Having read other posts on this forum rents claimed via this process are paid over years so no chance of getting this money anytime soon ( if ever).

3. Lawyers. Ideally you need a French lawyer that speaks English. Before our group had managed to get together several owners had already taken and paid for legal advice. About 20 UK owners got together as a group to take some legal advice from a French lawyer and we split the cost between us. The lawyer managed to get responses from with M.Abitbol ( the administrator) and M. Bortolotti (La Grange's legal department) in an attempt to negoatiate a better contract but it soon became clear that La Grange were not interested in negotiating and that running up further legal costs trying to negotiate was futile. They agreed to pay for the rubbish tax and that was about it. The most important information we gained from this process was :
- that we were not legally obliged to sign the addendum
- a better understanding of the sauvegaurde process and that in theory our rent had to be paid under the sauvegarde regime.
- that our existing lease was still legally binding if we did not sign the addendum and Resitel did not cancel it.
- an understanding that compensation could be payable after the original 9 years of lease if we didn't renew the lease then ( several of us were not aware of this).
- told that if Resitel or the administrator cancelled the lease, compensation to them would not be payable.

4. Since then we have joined forces with the French owners and are using a lawyer appointed by them. However, only 40 owners signed with him so at the moment there is a minority paying the bill. That said, about 40 owners signed the addendum so there is at this stage less they can do legally which is why they haven't joined in the legal action. The French are now running the legal side of things.
You definately need to join forces with your French owners.

5. Getting any information out of Resitel or La Grange is very difficult. They are neither clear or transparent.

6. Accounts. We have asked again and again for full account information for our Residence but never received it.

7. Resitel have called a meeting with owners of our residence for later this month so we are very much hoping that the end will be in sight either way. At the moment less than half of owners have signed the addendum. Hopefully, one of the UK owners will go to attend the meeting. If he does, we will split his travel and hotel costs between the group.

8. The leases for the residence in Valloire were cancelled by Resitel last month. I believe they are now seeking a new management company.

Sparklygirl41197.4897106482

I wonder how many owners have actually read their lease. As a result

of all this , I sat down to read it and discovered something that maybe

you are all aware of but I wasn't.

At the end of the existing lease the owner has to pay for the

refurbishment of the property at a cost decided by the management

company!!

When we bought the property we were told very clearly by the agent

that this cost would be borne by the management company. He used

this fact as a major selling point!

Another example of mis-selling and of course this agent is long since

gone!

Sparkly girl - thanks for the in depth response... seems a lot of our

"learning curve" can be avoided through past experience.

Cathy8 - We were initially looking at Leaseback and (thankfully) decided

against. One of the shocking things for me was that they can (in theory)

renew the lease whether you like it or not. When I asked about this, they

said "oh, they never would do this, because it would undermine the whole

scheme and no-one would sign up in future".

I have to say, thats not the reason we chose against leaseback - ours was a

personal choice that we wanted more flexibility on changeover days and our

own use etc.

I think a lot of us certainly left a lot to "trust" when buying in a foreign

language. Certainly we did - one of the reasons being that even British

leases are impossible to understand!

I guess like a lot of us, I trusted the story I was sold by the agent who was dealing with the product some nine years back. I too believed it was trouble free investment that would pay for itself, all backed by the French government who would effectively 'guarantee' the safety of the whole deal. I was also lead to believe by the agent that yes, the apartment would be restored to its former glory at the termination of the lease! How wrong was I??

I think my apartment is next door to yours Steve in FdS. The apartment itself, the location and th e view are fine (as long as no-one builds on that field in front). Just a bit sickened to see that I was shafted by the deal I bought.

I am now hopeful that maybe this situation may eventually turn out to be one of those turning point moments that will lead onto some better and more fruitful arrangement. Fingers are crossed!

Hi I am a new member of the post. I represent a group of British and Irish owners of apartments in lagrange Prestige Les Chalets Edelweiss in La Plagne 1800. We have had a letter, today, from Soderev announcing their move into 'protective administration'. We do not have a date yet for the meeting . We are going to take legal advice on this matter has anybody done this yet?
Thanks

Hi Daft Doctor,

Does the letter not say thay the accounts will be available at the

meeting ? Not sent out before it.

Hi Sparkly Girl,

Many thanks for passing on your experiences. You are providing those of us at the begining of the journey with vital information.

You say that in theory the rents should be paid inder the sauveguarde scheme. Have you actualy received any rent payments since Resitel were put into administration?

Thanks

Hi Justme,

Having looked at Legavox, there is a post from a french owner jmd01 re-asking for contacts from LFDS. I know you have had some contact from french owners but he may be able to link more to the respective databases. BTW how is the list going?

Regards

I am returning slightly obsessively to the issue of the

intragroup transaction between the lease-holding tenant

companies (Resitel, Soderev) which are in administration,

and the holiday company Lagrange, which is not.

It is clear from the accounts of Soderev that the largest

part of its income (perhaps its only income? I can't tell

from the accounts) is received

from Lagrange. So anytime Lagrange feels the

pinch, it can turn off the cash to Soderev.

So our leases are worth in practical terms absolutely

nothing because in the event of default from Soderev, all

we get to do is sue Soderev. Soderev has no assets (I've

got a copy of the accounts if anyone wants them) and its

only source of income is from Lagrange and not, so far as

I can tell contractually protected. So our leases, under

either the old or any proposed new arrangement are not

worth as much as the paper they are printed on.

So what I would like to know is has anyone in the earlier

administrations demanded a parental guarantee? By this I

mean a guarantee that the terms of the leases will be

honored by the parent company. This company may have

some assets. I don't know because it doesn't publish its

accounts as it is a Swiss resident company. But it's

certainly got more assets than Soderev, which has diddly

squat. It seems to me that requiring a parental

guarantee is what anyone signing up to a new lease should

demand at a minimum.

Sarah41198.8832986111

In most aspects I agree with Sarah, however surely the other thing that comes in to play from Lagrange's point of view is that they have no holiday business without our properties?

I know that they do advertise other properties within their brochure but the biggest percentage by far are the ones owned by us. They are still taking bookings into next year and to keep a viable holiday business up and running they need our properties.

Just out of interest does any one know how far in advance you have been able to book on the Lagrange web site in the past? I've had a look and at the moment the booking calander is open up until May 2013 for our residence, which is when our occupation calendar usually swaps from winter to summer, but I don't know if this is the norm or may be a sign of when they are looking to cut and run after the next court administration hearing!

Yes that point occurred to me, curlywurly.

There are three possible scenarios.

1. The Lagrange group is fundamentally sound but

cynically ridding itself of loss-making residences

through these processes of administration, leaving itself

lean and healthy going forward.

2. The Lagrange group is facing genuine financial

hardship, is planning to continue in business but is

unfortunately having to restructure to be able to move

forward in partnership with its owners.

3. The Lagrange group is going under, knows it is going

under, and is cynically planning to use these processes

to extract the last pound of flesh from its owners.

It troubles me that ultimately I don't know who or what

we are dealing with. I don't know who owns this group.

I don't know their intentions. I don't know their bona

fides. I don't know the financial position of the group

as a whole, but if I did, I'd know what was going on. If

scenario 2 applies, why aren't they more open?

If this really is negotiation stage with Lagrange, what chances do we have in redrafting the lease between landlord/tenant?

For example no compensation on termination of the lease period, a "capped" fee for refurbishment costs if we choose to extend the lease. Any other suggestions welcome.

Maybe this is a chance at this stage, if they feel we have a united approach and risk losing rentable properties, maybe this is the deal in return for reduced rental in the short term?

I can imagine if there are no properties to rent, as the other option is all tenants self appoint a mangement for their resort, then there is no Lagrange I guess??

The holiday rents get paid to La Grange to lagrange-holidays from the

holiday makers.

Our lease is with the part of the group that has no income stream.

Should have been wiser when we bought from LP Promotion now

advertised as Lagrange Patrimone in their holiday brochure, our lease

is with Soderev and all income goes to La Grange!

In the brochure a company called Traveland Resorts MDV is referred

to Carouge/Geneva, a new name to me perhaps this is the parent

company?

I think we need a forum that has some privacy for communication as

suggested our strategy is laid bare for all to see on this forum, this

forum has been very useful for communicating and informing - thank

god for the Internet and the posts informing really grateful to all who

have spent the time searching and sharing info.

Checked my french bank acc today. Lagrange have deposited 37 euros, about 1/30th of what it should be. An odd amount and no letter or explanation. Oh dear doesnt look good.

Hi Matt,

From what I understand, once in admin they are obliged to pay us future amounts due to avoid the next step of liquidation. As they went into admin on the 28th of September, they need to pay the remaining days of the quarter hence the 37 euros. Hopefully that bodes well at least for Q4's payment.

They will have to go back to the courts in March as the sauveguarde procedure is for 6 months, so I guess Q1 2013 payment is up in the air.