Lagrange / Soderev

Hi All,

Can any one give me an idea of the number of British/Irish owners effected by the Soderev situation, property journalist interested in finding out more about leaseback.

jonb

I don't know how many folks here use Granth Thornton for their accounting services in France, but I do and they have just sent me a letter detailing the Safeguard Procedure as it relates to Soderev and ourselves. If anyone wants a copy of this let me have your email address, however the highlights are: -

• according to law unpaid rent up to safeguard procedure must be paid


• however the period open for them to make the payment is up to EIGHT YEARS, which will be decided by the court


• Soderev will present the court with a new 'operating budget' which may include a request to write off rent arrears and/or renegotiate rent


• The court will render a decision based on this proposal from Soderev

So, all looking favourable for us owners then. Not!

Apparently there is a meeting in Paris regarding the bankrupcy on 13th

November. We should all be getting letters at some point, probably at very

short notice to make sure we can't go!

Also, the annual meeting in Lyon is meant to take place later in October: lots

of notice again! (I haven't had any yet).

We have heard that our meeting will be on 20 Nov. We had the meeting in Lyon last week, which is when we heard about the safeguarding procedure.

I noted a post earlier which talked about not posting too much on this site and having private email correspondence. I think this is a good idea, but I am unclear about how we can achieve this, i.e how do we share our email addresses privately?

Not everyone uses facebook.

Personally I can't see the need to split into various factions or hide. It's hardly a secret that the french and us have forums where we will discuss strategies and nor should it be - that's the whole point. If Lagrange are monitoring it and realise people have seen through them and are willing to take legal action; refuse to sign leases and generally fail to roll over etc then it might make them more likely to offer a sensible deal in the first instance.

Hi,

I own a property at lfds and would like to know how to get on the list of

owners for Samoans.

Things are clearly moving fast and I think a concerted effort is required.

Was it justme who has a list.

Also, previously at lfds we used a French speaker based in Samoans to

attend annual meetings, but not sure if that is applicable for the Paris

meetings.

Whatever they decide, surely it is down to an individual to accept or not

the new lease terms and I for one would be happy to disconnect from

the lease and pay the TVA.

(Im a Samoens owner).So lets say we have to opportunity to negotiate the new bail commercial. What can we do ?

Since 2005/06 Lagrange have been putting up the holiday costs by say 5% year on year, yet all we have had is something like 4% rent increase over about 5 yrs. So surely they should be making more now than they did 5 yrs ago.

Another thought - from the letter they have 31 residences, say 100 property at each so 3000 properties, and they are what 3.5m euros in defecit = 1166 e per property. Is that what they are going to negotiate. What do we get for that. I would say that if they cannot fill the properties then they should give us say an extra 3 weeks own use per year. Then at least we have a chance to rent in out privately. How does that sound ?

I think all these points need to be made in a consistent manner to the firm of

lawyers that deals with the insolvency, i.e. the letter that was received

yesterday came from those lawyers, and I translated it for everyone.

It also explains the arguments of SODEREV quite clearly, i.e. they have had

less demand from holiday makers due to the recession, people going for

cheap internet deals, and also because many other residences were built.

This is particularly obvious in Samoens. Indeed, if I was a holiday maker, I

would not go to the Fermes de Samoens (and certainly not at the prices

charged), which are very basic accommodation with a tiny pool, when others

have built much nicer ones and even nearer to the lifts. So let's face reality,

please!

I'm an owner at Peemor Pen, and a Chartered Accountant (Fellow of Institute of Chartered Accountants in England & Wales). I am happy to do any number crunching to help understand our financial positions and that of Soderev. If there is anything specific you would like my input on please let me know.

There are still more residences being built in the Alps. There is a particularly large and I believe hi-spec development at Pralong de Vanoise. One guess as to who the developer is ? Yes that's right it is La Grange.
It feels as though they made a nice healthy profit when they developed and sold our properties promising a guaranteed return. Only what wasn't made at all clear was that guarantee was going to be with a ring fenced puppet company which has no assets. Meanwhile La Grange get to keep the profit made from selling the developments.

I agree that the economy has changed and that will effect the promised returns but I do feel that La Grange are using this exercise to squeeze as much as the can out of owners. It is still very unclear what the contractual arrangements are between La Grange and Resitel / Soderev - how much do La Grange cream off the top of every booking made thus reducing the net income received by Resitel ?
Also, many bookings are made using tour operators so they will also be taking a slice of the profits - take a look at companies like Peak Retreats and see how much they charge (Resitel and Soderev may only receive a fraction of the rent paid by the customer). This is information we don't have and La Grange are unwilling to disclose.

There are 35 Uk/ Irish owners in our residence ( plus 4 from the USA). While we all have a common aim to try and protect our investment and not be totally shafted by Resitel/ La Grange, people do want different outcomes. If a journalist is going to write about Soderev please don't forget Resitel !

Some owners signed the addendum that was sent because they wanted to keep the TVA and a hassle free investment. Then there are those that did not sign but would still prefer to remain in leaseback but not at any cost (so they want to find some middle ground between the existing lease and the addendum offered back in April). Then there are a few of us that see this an opportunity to be lease free and feel that paying the TVA is worth the risk so that we can self rent.

What we have all agreed to do from the outset try to keep everyone as informed as possible and let everyone make their own decision based on their personal circumstances. That said, to avoid a conflict of interests the first legal advice/ action we took was only amoungst those that did not sign. However, the signed owners were informed that we were doing this.
So in summary, don't get frustrated if other owners don't share your opinion. Some owners simply won't have the time to self rent while others may not be able to finance paying back the TVA. It is a matter of maths, personal preference and time.

A closed facebook page is quite a good forum to use. I know not everyone has facebook but they maybe the same people that don't normally chat on web forums either.
Personal email addresses can be shared by sending a personal message to another owner via this forum.

Sparklygirl41201.514837963

I have just received my creance form. Does anyone know what amount has to be filled in - it it just what we usually receive per quarter or something different? Any help gratefully receieved.

If there's anyone out there from Les Trois Glaciers in Montchavin, please get

in touch. I received my "Avis de declaration de creance" today so am keen to

know what this all means & what anyone else might be doing about it.

Cheers, Peter...

There is a Les Trois Glaciers specific forum here:

http://www.quicktopic.com/48/H/DKK4PUxXCyd

I also posted this on the St Gervais (Soderev) specific stream in this forum

This might be a naive approach but will consider forwarding this on to the

administrator (assuming they accept email correspondence).

1. Given that , according to Soderev, they has less demand, if we have to

take a significant lower rental fee in the short term that we are

compensated in line with the terms of the current lease agreement with

the equivalent weeks of use. We then have the opportunity to try and rent

these ourselves and generate some income.Utilising this spare capacity

for us wouldn't cost Soderev anything but for those trying to cover

mortgage costs would provide some retention of value. If the market picks

up then the reverse process can take place. This could take place under

the current agreement.

2. Will we see 'profit' figures for St Gervais itself i.e. is this a profitable

operation?

3. Any amends to our lease agreement should also mean that we can the

opportunity to cancel in the future without penalty.

Is there a method by which different proposals will be considered, or do

we have to wait for their proposal and then vote/reject?

Hi to all - great forum.This is my first post so here goes:

As an owner of a property in Peemor Pen, Morgat, I feel we need to get as many owners as possible together. This to me is the key issue as we, as a group, are stronger and can make a better informed decision on how to proceed. We must look at options such as rejecting the new lease aggreement and sourcing a new management company, or possibly be in a position to negotiate an improved offer from Lagrange when a new lease contract is offered. I believe no offer will be made over the winter giving us until spring time to organise ourselves. If I receive interest, I will setup a web site specifically for Peemor Pen owners to register and communicate with each other.

So I hope to be hearing from all in Premier Pen!

Hi,

I am rereading all the recent letters from soderev and would like to

draw your attention to the one where they highlight the losses in 2011

and expected loss in 2012.

Aside from the fact that I would like them to also tell us what these

figures were for previous years, not just the last three during the

downturn that they are wringing about!

One point I am curious about, if they have not paid the full quarterly

rent to any of us and the rent due to owners was 19.8m per year, does

that mean they just reduced their operating loss by nearly 5m and

therefore will be making 1.5m in 2012 or is the 3.5m loss on top of this

5m saving?

Dave, I'm sorry that I accidentally deleted all the

messages in my inbox. But you can get copies of those

accounts for the earlier years - they are publicly filed

here - http://www.infogreffe.fr/infogreffe/index.do

What you will learn from these accounts is not much

though. You will learn that Soderev is in financial

difficulties. You will learn that an amount that is not

equal to the rents collected by the holiday company is

remitted to Soderev. You will learn that there are

strange and unreconciled intercompany balances with

Lagrange. You will learn that there are strange charges

going out to Switzerland. You will learn nothing about

the overall profitability of the group, which is

absolutely key.

The development which I bought from LaGrange at Les Patois Eugenie, Biarritz is not yet completed so Soderev have not yet invited me to a meeting. I would be very interested to find out what were the proposals from the Administrator of Soderev.
JR63

We understand (not from Lagrange or Soderev officially

yet, but via an advisor who attended the creditors

meetings held last week) that our residence is profitable

and that no addendum will be offered on our lease, and

that it will continue as previously. It is one of the 15

profitable residences, apparently.

This sounds like good news, but only to a certain extent.

We still have to go through the declaration de creance

process to try to recover previous lost rents. It has

also made us conscious that being bundled into Soderev,

the reason our rents weren't paid is a combination of any

inefficiencies by Lagrange and also because we were

supporting other less profitable residences.

What would be a good outcome for us would be to have the

residence ring-fenced, perhaps in its own limited

company, with absolute and secure visibility over the

income and expenditure being charged in those accounts.

This process should be about protecting the creditors as

well as protecting the company.

We're continuing to build secure contingency plans. A

group that has lost or renegotiated the vast majority of

its residences is a group that has to be doubtful in the

future. Can we be sure that it can survive in the longer

term? It's an organisation that seems to lack the

flexibility to cope with the future.

got this from my accountants...

As you know the receiver started meetings with owners in order to negotiate a decrease in rental income. We attended the meetings lest thursday 25th and we have been explained that 16 developments on a total of 31 are facing financial losses.

Meetings have been scheduled: the 25th October for Bergerac, St Gervais, Bénodet, Montignac. The 13th November for Les Coches, Luchon, Cybeles, Champagny and Samoens. The 20th November for Les Arc, Edelweis, Monchavin and Valoire.

Apparantly, if you do not own a unit in these developments, your rent should not be renegotiated.

Soderev gave us a copy of the Profit & Loss accounts for 2011 for each resort. They are proposing to reduce the rent for an amount equal to the losses and in addition the double the "forfait charges" that is deducted from the rent once a year.

Rent reductions were ranging from 29% to 64% according to the losses of the development. we have not been asked for immediate answer. The role of C'est La Vie is to negotiate better conditions is owners agree, what we started already.

You have 2 options: or C'est La Vie negotiate for you better conditions or you join the Group of owners of your development and follow the instructions of the Group.

If owners do not accept the new conditions of Soderev, the receiver will cancel the leases immediately (early December) and you will have to find a new management company. We consider that you have 12 months to find a new management company before to repay the VAT back, so the VAT is not an immedaite issue.

If you accept the new conditions of Soderev, you will have to sign an endorsement.

Sarah / GaryC

Do you have the list of which developments are affected and requiring a rent

renegotiation?

I don't have a list personally but the advisor from C'est

la Vie took down a list and sent it to his clients, and

Gary mentioned the residences above. It's primarily the

ski residences. He mentions the following:

Bergerac, St Gervais, Bénodet, Montignac

Les Coches, Luchon, Cybeles, Champagny and Samoens

Les Arc, Edelweis, Monchavin and Valoire

We queried this list because it adds up to 13 (and not

16) but apparently this is because there is more than one

residence in some of the locations above.

Hope this helps!

Sarah

Thanks Sarah, if we find any further information about the affected

properties we will post it here.

Does anybody know if there is any benefit in sending in the

declaration de creance early?

I have just received a breakdown from soderev outlining the shortfall in the 3rd trimestre. If you wait until this arrives it will make the form filling easier

Regards

Hi all. Sian and myself own D04 at LFDS and were getting

rather concerned at developments until Brigitte managed

to get hold of us yesterday. Finally got onto this forum

this evening. We certainly don't intend to sign any

leaseback that reduces our income as it barely covers

what we need it to at present.

We also own a house on a holiday complex in

Pembrokeshire, Wales, made up of 17 properties but also

including a swimming pool complex, gym etc. The majority

of the owners use a local holiday letting company and we

all pay monthly into a management group which maintains

the site, covers external maintenance and employs a

caretaker who looks after the pool, grounds etc. The

management group's shareholders are the owners and

certainly seems to work well.

We'd be quite happy to get out of the leaseback scheme

and go for a classic ownership with a management group

similar to that in our Pembrokeshire property. We

appreciate that we'd carry the risk, but the returns seem

better, and the advantage is that LFDS has both a Summer

and Winter season, unlike our property in West Wales

who's peak season is really 6 weeks long.

Many thanks for all the comments, we certainly feel

better knowing about what lies ahead, and that others

have similar views to us and are organising to do

something about all this.

We confirm that on purchasing the property in LFDS we

were told that a) extending the lease for a second 9

years was optional, and b) that the property would be

restored to as new condition by La Grange / Soderev at

their cost, not ours - after all any degredation will

have occurred due to their use, not ours over the

previous 9 years.

Steve Hale,

Bear in mind you would have to repay 13/20 of the VAT rebate if the site is not run as a residence de tourisme with sufficient leaseback properties by one management company. That is not to say it's not an option but there are consequences.

Hi,

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A quick message for Justme.

I am an owner at Les Fermes de Samoens and have just come across this site having received a few days ago my letter from Soderev.

I am very interested to join a group action, as having suffered this problem on two other leasebacks, I strongly believe that a solid and unified group with legal representation is the only way to proceed with any chance of success.

I have been trying to send my details to Justme via PM, but keep getting the message rejected as your PM mail box is full. Any chance you could empty some messages so that I can get my details to you and added on to the group list for LFDS.

Thanks

Anyone know how to fill in the french claim form to try and get back the money we are owed.

I`m stuck on echu - echoir ? Ive only been paid about 37 euros from about 1100 owed from septembers payment.

Also do we fill it in now - will the December payment be paid.

Thanks in advance

Matt (LFDS owner)

I can't find Tony in the list of posts but if anyone has an example, or guidance, of what should go in the 4 boxes (Loyer - Echu & A Echoir/ Autre Somme - Echue/ A Echoir), that would be much appreciated... Cheers, Peter.

Loyer échu is outstanding rent and loyer à échoir is rent that will become due for payment.

Autre somme = any other sum that is outstanding or will become due for payment.

Yeah I'd understood the French, I guess my question was more about the period that we're talking; is this to the end of the leaseback period (or some other timescale) & does anyone have a sense of what the "other costs" might be? Thanks, Peter

Good luck to those who have decided to lodge their

own declaration de creance using Tony's good tips and

forms!

As far as I am concerned, I am having this done

professionally. I believe DIY is no moneysaver when it

comes to law, especially foreign law.

Tony, you have previously stated on this forum that such

insolvency claims are unsecured claims. This simply is is

incorrect and is misleading this forum's users.

When some of the leaseback owners who have used your

forms will be advised that their claim has been set

aside, will you also be providing them with another

template to submit a plea to the 'Juge Commissaire'?

I agree with Duffmary,<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

If as a group we approach an agreed upon French Lawyer (I understand there are already two being discussed) we should be able to strike a pretty good deal to have each members claim properly and legally compiled and correctly filled with the administrator and the court.

As a guide when I had to do this in relation to another leaseback scheme in 2009 it cost each member of the action group 119,6 Euros VAT included to prepare and file our claims for lost rent.

Anyone interested in looking at the Accounts of SODEREV can see them all

here:

http://www.bilansgratuits.fr/SODEREV-TOUR-

-44510365800149/bilans.htm