Lagrange / Soderev

Hi...had the same letter today.No idea if legally they can delay

payment...? It also worries me that Soderev appear to be having cash

flow issues.

i mailed my french accountant and they are "taking action" on behalf of

their clients so we will see what happens.I suggest you mail your

accountants..

Received the June Quarter rent yesterday, but Soderev have

deducted the 2012 Forfait Charges of about €1,000. These

are not usually taken until the December Quarter (which

would have been payable January 2013). Hell of a cash

saving for Soderev, but I bet that it is 'legal' and that

there is nothing that we can do!

mine too...will be interesting to see if its delayed when the next payment is due...?

Sorry for being thick but I have just read something on a French website in May concerning Lagrange.

I hadn't realised that Resitel which is in severe financial trouble (see other threads) is a subsidiary of Lagrange.

This article which was posted in May, stated that many observers were concerned about the financial state of Soderev another Lagrange subsidiary.

Does not look good.

http://immobilierandco.wordpress.com/2012/05/30/lagrange-les -residence-de-tourisme-resitel-en-difficulte/

Davey1

Rent for June Quarter for Fermes de Samoens arrived in our bank account 25 July.

Atlantic Island

Re les fermes de samoens.

Has anybody got the form specifying the weeks available for

occupation for next winter/spring?

Normally I get this in July but despite emails and phone calls it hasn't

arrived yet. The keep saying it will be next week?

I have tried to phone the Paris office but have not got put through -

they are always busy?

Hi justme

Thanks for the post.

Do you mind me asking what does the dispute with them concern?

I have found it hard to get anywhere when small jobs needed to be

done to the property. I have mentioned these but got nowhere.

Other than that the rent has always been paid and the calendar for

occupation has come out in plenty of time.

Do you or anyone else out know what's going on now?

Is the les fermes de samoens in trouble or the fact that other

properties in other locations didn't rent as well and that is putting

pressure on the soderev group?

Hi. La Grange use 3 management companies - Soderev ( Luxury properties), Resitel ( mid range) and another for their economy properties.
Resitel went into sauvegarde in March and we did not receive our Q1 rent - just 5 days to represent 26 - 31 March as they were in the sauvegarde then. Most of their failing propertie were in the Pyrenees area - ours is in the Alps.
We were asked to sign a new addendum which would give 15% less rent, paid half yearly instead of quarterly and pass all the property charges ( an increase from a fixed amount of €20 per m2 to the current rate of approx €56m2, TV licence, rubbish charges and any other charge they could think of). We were told that if we did not sign our lease would be cancelled. Everything added together was closer to a 50% decrease in net income - although this was unclear if you read the french small print ( some owners who did sign feel that they were misled into signing).
For our residence, about 50% of owners signed ( we think). We formed an owners group with other UK owners that have not signed and tried to negotiate a more reasonable deal with La Grange ( who seem to deal with the Resitel queries) - they offered some minor concessions but the new lease remained unreseasonable.
By June we had managed to join forces with the French owners. Some French owners and one Uk owner went to meet with La Grange in Paris - but again no compromise was found.
Q2 rent was paid 6 weeks late and only after legal action. Resitel deducted our share of the property charges for the Q2 rent ( it should have been deducted from Q1 but we didn't get paid that rent). However, we are also being asked by the La Grange Syndic to pay the property charges so it would appear that Resitel has not passed the money on.
Our leases have not been cancelled as threatened / promised - a number of owners would rather self rent and pay the TVA than stay with Resitel on such dire terms. Our residence is busy in both winter and summer with an average of 80% occupancy.
Neither Resital or the La Grange Syndic will answer our emails. Our next rent is due in 2 weeks time - if we get it. Our apartments continue to be rented. We are a very unhappy group of owners.
Hope yours doesn't go down the same route.

Sparklygirl41174.7054166667

likewise got the calender of occupation for les fermes de samoens today by email - better late than never. Hopefully the rent will appear at end of this month also.

I've never had this calender d'occupation for Fermes de Samoens. Who specifically within Soderev deals with that? Whenever I've indicated I wanted to use my apartment it was always made available, but seems strange they've never sent me something which it appears other owners have received...

What's the latest view on rental payments? Anyone taking any wagers on if/when we'll next be paid and what deductions they'll come up with this time?

You're certainly right on the different deals. I pay for usage through deduction of rent - seemingly I bought without rights to 'free' weeks.

Still battling those fools over the unpaid amounts?? Jeez, they are dumb!

..just in from my accountant...

After a phone call to Soderev this morning it has been confirmed that the company is since the 28/09/2012 under receivership even though it hasn’t been officially published yet. Maître Abitbol is the receiver and Mr Leloux Tomas is the representative.

The direct consequence is that unfortunately the rent for the third trimester 2012 won’t be paid.

The action requires is to send all outstanding rent up the 28/09/2012 to the representative. In order to so would you please send us the following documents:

- Bank statements for the year 2012

- Rental statements from Soderev for the year 2012

So we can figure out the amount of the latest rent received and the date. It should be done before the 28/01/2013 for the Non Residents and before the 28/11/2012 for the French Residents.

The receiver will take around 2 months to decide the future of the company; it is very likely that he will start by renegotiating all leases by a decrease of rent. Please do contact us if that’s the case. You should also know that you probably won’t receive any rents for the next 6 to 9 months.

Hi,

I find this forum very good to at least get a grasp of what is going on with

Soderev.

One thing I do have a hard time understanding is however what happens if

Soderev does not owe you anything as of now. I receive my rent twice a year

(April 30 and October 30). Are they supposed (not saying that they will!) to

pay me on October 30 even if they are in receivership?

I have an appartment in Residence Aspen, La Plagne. Anyone else out there?

Reading between the lines..Soderev will try and re-negotiate the rent knowing that if people decline then the agreement will end and the owner will be liable for the TVA(VAT) @19%...what annoys me is that they are no doubt renting out the apartment and collecting money..my money.

When and if you turn down the reduced rent and are then liable for the VAT i think the time that the rent has not been paid will count towards a reduction in the VAT amount. It would be helpful to know how quickly the French tax office would want the outstanding VAT..?This news will kill the Leaseback market stone dead...

Leaseback market is already dead. Very few new sales of these things. However we are not the first to suffer like this - a quick glance through the forum here and you'll see that we were lucky to have got this far before the wheel feel off!

I am guessing we need to rally behind one or two focale point individuals who can gather us all together into one voice...? Best we also try to dissuade anyone we know from accepting reduced rents, at least not without consensus that that is the only way forward.

There is the issue of the Residence de Tourisme status I believe, which may come into play here. If too many did decide to pay the VAT and take their property into full ownership and management does not impact on the tax and other status of the whole development? Anyone know the precise details of this?

i use a company called C'est La Vie in France who do my accounts.I believe they are acting on behalf of there clients.They are saying we will not receive any rental for the next 6 to 9 months till the administrator has sorted it out.They also stressed that we should not in anyway be=reak our side of the leaseback agreement.

Hi GaryC,

Was that the rent owed or no rent at all for the next 6 to 9 months?

no rent at all..the administrator will sort his end and they will try and re-negotiate the rents.

the only way you can make the case for staying with a reduced rent is if you cannot pay the outstanding VAT. Will the French VAT man demand immediate payment or will he accept it over a longer time...?

I will pay the VAT and be glad to get rid of and "Management" company

From what I´ve seen on this forum it seems like the proposed reduction of

rent is not time-limited which is a rough deal.

I would prefer to either be able to break the lease or to have a contract with

a rent that is actually based on the income of the apartment. This is sort of

what the "Optimum" packet was when I bought my apartment. I would then

pick and choose the weeks I want and then give the rest to Lagrange.

The rent income may be less for now when the european economy is the

way it is and increase as the european economy improves. This would also

be a good way of steering away from the connection between rent income

and property value which in my mind is handicapping the resale market for

leasebacks.

..thats very interesting..thanks for the article

Agreed that breaking the lease probably is the best option if you are trying

to sell the apartment.

I am planning to hold on to my apartment for many years to come as I and

my family really enjoy staying there. I would however like to find a way to

have it managed and rented out. My firm belief is that if we can find a way

to have a flexible rent the risk of management companies going under

would be much lower.

Daft Doctor..my sentiments too.Sit tight...wait for the offer..Reject it and manage the place myself. Coincidently i am staying at Fermes Des Samoens in March renting another apartment thru OwnersDirect.co.uk..thats the way to go

Just heard from LaGrange that we will receive a letter later this week about them going into administration.

Our development is Les Bastides Des Chaumettes, and we would be interested to hear from other owners

Justme..no idea..i have never used our apartment..have always found it easier to book another elsewhere..will check the dates we are there and let you know..should be some updates by then

Hi

I've got a week booked in April and my strong suspicion

(hope?!) is that we will be able to use it. I'm no

lawyer, let alone a French one, but this seems to be the

equivalent of a British Administration, the Company

continues to trade and you can still book holidays on the

Lagrange websites. So hopefully the weeks booked should

be OK.

The offers that we are going to get for the changes to

the leases are all going to differ, dependant on the

trading of each individual site. So it would be useful

for owners at each site to stay in touch. I've made

contact with a couple of other owners at Le Clos Des

Vignes at Bergerac, are there any others reading these

posts who have properties on that Residence? If so,

could they message me? Thanks

I have never used these blog forums before so I am not sure

what to do.

I have a property in Le Clos Des Vignes, Bergerac.

I was told about this blog thingy and I would appreciate

any / all information on what is happening ?????

dublue...just read the previous conversations..lots of info in these.

Hi All, I'm a "classic" owner at Les Fermes de Samoens. It must be a huge

worry for those of you who are leaseback... but if you do decide to "go it

alone" it's not so bad. There are many plus sides to classic ownership (once

you get over the 19% hurdle ) I get about 14-16 weeks rental per year

and can of course use the place whenever I like (not as often as I would

like). It opens up any day change-overs which = cheap flights too.

That said, I too am very worried about the "up keep" of LFDS, especially

during the time it takes to sort out. Also... what happens if no buyer is

found?

steverushton..me and my friend..Steve Downey are staying at your place in March 2013 for 4 days..i believe Steve has stayed with you before.As you say,once you get over the VAT issue,and i believe we will have 3 years to pay this off then i am looking forward to becoming,as you say, a classic owner.It would be handy to pick your brains when the time comes.

Gary

Hi

First time on the site i am a property owner in Le Clos des Vignes Bergerac

What can we do as owners should we all get together from each development

Sorry to hear that Soderev is going down the same road as Resitel.
After 6 months we are still at a stand off with Resitel who have not cancelled our leases as threatened ( although this has now occured for some of their other residences - the one in Valloire is having its leases cancelled). I am very keen to go down the route of self renting if/when my lease is cancelled and feel that paying the TVA is the lesser of two evils.
Resitel have said we can seek termination of our leases but we would have to pay them compensation which we are not prepared to do given that it is Resitel that is asking us to accept new conditions. Hence the stale mate! We have ever just received our Q3 rent ( we did not receive Q1 and only received part of Q2 as the took off the property charges from our Q2 rent). Although the syndic have also sent us a bill for the property charges.
Try to get a list of all the owners for your residences and start contacting them now so that you can work together.
We have formed an owners group for our residence but a number of owners had already signed the addendum that they were sent - 42% of them. Some of those that did sign had not fully understood what they were signing as they thought they were just accepting a reduced rent of 15%. However, the addendum also passed all the property charges to the owners, plus the TV licence and rubbish collection costs (and probably the habitation tax as well but Resitel have never given us an answer about that). So the total change in net income would have been a 50% reduction.
You are not obliged to sign a new addendum if you are sent one so don't be pressured into doing so. if you don't sign the addendum and Soderev does not cancel your lease then your existing lease will still legally be in place.

If anyone has some information on the time scale for replayment of the TVA that would be appreciated. I have read that you have 3 years to pay it back but have not been able to confirm this or what instalments should be paid over that period. Thank you

Sparklygirl41192.5377430556

GaryC - no problem, pick away :-) Hopefully all will be well for your stay in

March. This short stay highlights a benefit of being away from Leaseback!

Hi guys- great info on this forum- well done

thought- I might summarize what ive learnt so far.

lagrange in receivership so no rent prob for next year. meanwhile a new management company will (hopefully) form which will take over the leases for those that want to stay in the leaseback scheme- the new leases will prob have extra charges and much lower rents than heretofore. For those who want to exit the leaseback scheme, there will be vat repayable over 3 years (maybe someone might clarify will that be the full amount of vat or the portion that relates to the period from which the lease is exited).

Key point seems to be not to feel pressurised into signing a new lease without checking out all the angles/costs.

Other key point is that in all likelihood people will be better off exiting the leaseback scheme if they can afford to pay the vat as they will then have flexibilty re dates of occupation etc.

In both cases, whether one stays in the leaseback or exits the scheme, a management company will be nexcessary to be set up and keep the common areas clean and tidy.

It may be out of our hands but wouldnt it be good if we could have some influence on the management company that will actually run the place on a day to day basis? Maybe its wishful thinking on my behalf but with regard to les fermes de samoens I found it impossible to get anything done in the past ie get a tap fixed; deal with very short open hours at reception on changeover day (we had to sleep in a barn up the mountain one year as the place was locked up when we arrived!).

I dont know how others feel re this? And does the leaseback company ie soderev/lagrange have to be the same company that actually manages the day to day running of the property?

thanks

Lescascades,

I think you have summarized things well. Not sure any of us can at present answer fully the questions you pose however as we all seem to have the same concerns.

I am interested to know what happens with the management of the place right now - presumably the muppets working there, on the few hours they put in each day, are/were paid employees of Soderev/Lagrange. If the company is unable to pay us is it able to pay them and all associated running and maintenance costs that arise? If not, or at least not in full, then the service and general maintenance will surely go downhill from its already low base.

If I understand things correctly, the lease agreement we all entered into with Soderev/Lagrange covers the daily running of the place and thus pays the salaries of staff there, utilities and the maintenance, what little is done. There will be an attempt by the receiver to maybe try to maintain the Soderev management of the development but at lower terms for ourselves. If we all reject that offer then they will try to sell the deal to some other management outfit, who will likely come in with a similarly unwelcome offer. The problems for us may come if a sizeable number of owners choose to accept whatever new deal is put before them rather than rejecting it.

I would guess that if there was full consensus from all owners to reject anything but the original terms, then we could eventually see the receivers give it up as a lost cause and the management team just walk away and leave the place. We'd then need someone pretty quickly to take up the reigns of day to day property management. However I feel it unlikely we'd get to that point though as I suspect we'll end up with the limbo arrangement it seems some others are in, with someone continuing to rent out our apartments and us refusing to 'allow' that to happen, but powerless to stop it.

I'd like to see a great and glorious day when we're all out of the horror of leaseback and in control of our destiny with these apartments, but I feel we may be in for a bumpy ride before we get anywhere near that.

Hi

Nice post Lescascades. Thanks.

The only difference I have is that the staff on our site

are excellent. I find it very easy to get the small jobs

done.

Isn't the 'syndic' that operates the site and pays the

bills etc. separate from Soderev? I know that it has

Lagrange in the name but we get the voting papers for the

AGM etc.

I don't know who employs the staff, however, I think that

it's Soderev.

Can any of those guys who aren't part of the leaseback

scheme tell us how they pay for the management of their

sites?

thatchchr- we get a bill twice a year to pay against. One of the mistakes

they made at LFDS when building is that there are no separate meters for

water or electricity, this is particularly annoying as we end up paying a

percentage of the total bill... annoying when you see lights left on

constantly in empty apartments.

I agree with Justme there two separate threads in progress

on this site, one under owners stories, the other relating

to lease back companies/developments. Much of the info is

the same but I imagine the scale of this will get bigger

when owners get communication from Soderev and the volume

of info/opinion will be hard to follow. Is it possible for

owners of specific developments, to agree of a certain

thread, or can we create a thread relating in each specific

development?

I appreciate there other sites many in French, but one site

may give a better communication and liason between us all

ANybody here with property in le clos de vignes?

Can somebody explain why the receiver can rent our property while in receivership and not pass the rent on to the owners

How is that legal?

Is there a page set up for les clos de vignes residents